In Conversation with Manmeet Sandhu, Head Of HR, PhonePe

You've been very vocal about D&I and So from your perspective, I'd like to understand what exactly is D&I and what is the stage we are in.

So I think in some ways, the whole idea of diversity and inclusion is very deeply embedded into the Indian ethos. We as a country have always been very diverse, I've had very different kinds of acceptance of, you know, whether it be religion, whether it be gender, whether it be sexual orientation, a lot of these are just built into the culture that we have as a country. In some cases, it seems like we've forgotten some of these aspects of life. But if you think about the way an average Indian behaves very frequently, the idea of being accepting and inclusive of different ways of behaving is very much embedded. From an organisational perspective, the thought really comes from the point of view that when you have different perspectives, different lived experiences, and different views on how things need to be done, it leads to an environment where there can be healthy debates, where decisions can be taken more thoughtfully because you consider a wider set of opportunities and options. And that leads to smarter decisions. It leads to decisions that maybe factor in a higher number of complexities and a higher number of edge cases, translating into maybe a higher degree of innovation, and therefore a long-term success for the organization. The idea of diversity and inclusion, at least in the work concept cannot be separated. Because if you're diverse, but you insist that everybody behaves in one standard fashion, and only one kind of white voice is allowed, it does not necessarily translate into any of the benefits because then again, you're saying, forget who you are, forget your own ways of thinking, don't really invest deeply in owning the work that you do, but just basically do whatever you're told. And that does not actually lead to any benefits at all. In an organization like ours, where IP and innovation is actually at the heart of success, it becomes really important that If people are able to consider what alternatives might be available. if I'm used to thinking about things in a particular way, somebody coming in and helping me think about another way of thinking about things, actually ensures that we are able to develop solutions that meet our consumers' needs better, and we are therefore able to innovate better. So I think it's not like in general, it's a nice thing to do. But more than a nice thing to do, I think in an organization that gives importance to innovation, having people who can bring in their thought processes and actively discuss them is very important for long-term success.

Once people from different orientations and diverse backgrounds come into the mix, the ideologies change, and the perceptions and behaviours change. How do you deal with the different individual behaviours and thought patterns to steer them towards organisational goals? 

This is an ongoing debate and conversation. And therefore, we realize that while we have to do some work around getting everybody on the same page, while simultaneously operating in a diverse environment,  It helps when people start engaging with each other and start having those conversations. I'll give you an example, from the people with disabilities space. So about two years ago, we had no one from the disability space in the organization. Today, we have about 19 to 20 people, which is a small number given the size of the organization, but it's a start. And we found out that a positive push form the organisation's perspective helps to ward off initial apprehensions casting a doubt on the contribution at work from the PwD segment. Once people were in, that's when a lot of the change in mindset began to come in. Because now you're working with someone who maybe can't see or maybe can't walk, but they are as competent, as capable as abled people in every other way. They have a sense of humour, they have a personality, and they have the capability in delivering on the job. And so then the perception starts charging towards them. A lot of that change actually comes through, not so much through some of the top-down conversations and top-down instructions that we share, but much more about what people learn when they start engaging with individuals on a one-on-one basis. There is of course, the other side of it, there is the other side of perceptions that might be sometimes much more deeply rooted around, for example, women and their capability or someone from the LGBTQ community and their ability to sort of work in that space. Because sometimes some of those concepts are much more deeply embedded. Those biases have been put into people from a much younger age.  But there also we need to create a slightly more or maybe artificial space for interaction, where engagement begins on some level.

I will say that we struggled in the beginning with the question of, whether we should just start a bunch of education and then hire people. Or should we hire people and then let the education continue? And we found that it's kind of a balance between the two that people will take and will need to be able to interact with individuals, see them as human beings, and understand their constraints and problems at a human level, for them to be able to respond to them and step away from some of the biases that they might have had. And we find that that combination helps in creating the right culture much more effectively.

How do you create the right policy and sensitize other employees within the organisation on Diversity and Inclusion?

It's a two-step process. One is a broader education and an understanding, which is more I think one of the other things about some of this is that it's not just the education. It's also just some of the mechanisms that you're able to put into the org, for example, continuing the PWD example, we work with an organization that helps us find candidates who might be suitable. And then we do a fairly systematic assessment of what support will the individual need to be able to do their job. Well, if for example, they are unable to see or their vision is limited, then it is about making sure that the computer system is set up, there is voice support available, and that the office itself is equipped to make it possible for someone who is unable to see. So that by itself allows a lot of independence to the person who is coming in and removes a bunch of the constraints that other people might feel that they are now required to sort of demonstrate. The second component of it is to sensitize the team they are operating in. How do they get aware of things that might be different for this individual, and that does not necessarily translate into them getting a perk or a benefit so that sensitization conversation tends to be within that particular team and is a systematic educational process. 

What are the parameters for hiring in case you're looking at LGBTQ and PwD candidates and what are the sources companies use for their recruitment?

We work with a couple of organizations and we do a fairly good job of being able to educate and train individuals who are then job ready for various kinds of roles, including a bunch that we might have at PhonePe. What we've also found is that as we've had some success in being able to hire and identify people in roles, two things have happened. One, of course, is internally the organization's individuals and managers are a lot more open to considering people for different kinds of diverse roles within the system. From a PwD perspective, we found out that people are a lot more willing to reach out to us seeking employment opportunities.

And then of course, we try and make sure that every time we get a request like this, we have to prioritize it. the capability of the person is a non-negotiable for us so we do assess people on the same bar as we would somebody else, making, of course, the right adjustments.  And we found that that's actually worked well for us. The largest source of hiring continues to be from agencies that work specifically in this space. But now that we have had some success, we are able to actually attract people more actively from the PwD community as well. LGBT has been harder, we were able to successfully hire a bunch of people from the trans community into the organization. And that has helped again, convey the fact that we are fairly supportive. We also work with pride as an organization to participate in hiring events that they conduct on an ongoing basis, and we've had some success there as well.

We also go to colleges, both professional colleges like engineering and MBA, as well as graduate-level colleges, where we conduct drives specifically for either people with disabilities or people from the LGBTQ community. While we are able to build a pipeline at the most junior levels, through some of these forums, finding people at the more senior levels has been harder, largely because of all of the stigma associated with some of these things and people don't necessarily want to share. Preference is if we are able to actively communicate and demonstrate that we are a safe and inclusive organization. And I would say that clearly, we haven't done enough work there. Because we haven't yet gotten to that place where people are comfortable sharing.

And how do you look at D&I from an organisation perspective?

At an org level, we have found that as we get into more and more businesses, we as an organization, start broadening the kinds of problems we are willing to tackle, getting people getting and getting people to sort of explain their perspective and be able to tell us how we can incorporate their experiences into the kinds of solutions that we develop. And also just sometimes being able to bring in a perspective that you may not otherwise get is really the biggest way in which I think having a diverse organization and inclusive organization helps. 

It is much more about whether the conversations and the culture allow for different kinds of diversity, whether it be mental diversity, neural, neurological diversity, physical diversity, or sexual diversity. it is more about the fact that you can be yourself and be successful in this organization. And just the fact that you have the representations more broadly allows that to be demonstrated and improved in the organization for success to happen.

Do you have any representation from these diverse communities in the leadership? 

Talking from a PwD Perspective, we do not currently have representation In my leadership team, and it is something that we do wish to correct over a period of time. I would say it is relatively simpler to get women in leadership roles as compared to the others, we have put in some very focused attention, we have been able to increase representation, double the presence, we were kind of at about 7%, we are now at about 16% 17%, 

In terms of the representation of women in senior leadership roles in the company. going as far as LGBT is concerned, we do not have a requirement for people to share their sexual preferences so we do not know, but I will say that nobody has openly spoken about it. And therefore, I do not know, if I have significant representation at that level. The goal for us as an organization would obviously to be continue to build that culture. We're very supportive and talk about this at a leadership level frequently.

Watch the complete interview below

Note: The automatic transcription has been lightly edited for a better reading experience. Some names and parts of the transcription may carry inadvertent errors that we are in the process of editing. Thank you for your understanding.

The video was first published on Jan 20, 2023